Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Jan Roos from CaseFuel joins us today to discuss Meta advertising.
Meta ads can be effective for PI lawyers if used strategically, focusing on educational content and earlier stages of client awareness.
Success metrics should focus on qualified leads/transfers and cost per case, not vanity metrics like impressions.
Ad fatigue is a key challenge; campaigns require frequent creative refreshes and strategic targeting.
Meta ads can be more cost-effective than Google Ads, with clicks often $2-10.
Visit Jan here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jan-roos-27078732/.
His company, CaseFuel: https://casefuel.com/home.
Check out The Law Firm Growth (LFG) Podcast: https://shows.acast.com/the-law-firm-growth-podcast.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript:
Welcome to the personal injury marketing minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world I’m your host Lindsey busfield when discussing marketing options with our clients We constantly get asked if doing social media marketing is with it and we typically say no While social media marketing is great for some businesses I know I have personally spent a ton of money at Halara because of their facebook ads We just haven’t seen much success for personal injury lawyers who try their hand at meta But the lack of success isn’t necessary
necessarily because of the platform. It might be that lawyers have the wrong expectations of what success should look like when using meta or their marketing specialist isn’t leveraging the right opportunities.
Fortunately, Jan Roos: joins us today to discuss how personal injury lawyers can best use meta to grow their practices.
Jan Roos:
Thank you so much for joining us today. Oh, thank you for the awesome intro Lindsey.
Lindsey:
Well, I’m so happy to have you here, but why don’t you tell everybody else who’s listening who you are and what you do.
Jan Roos:
Cool. So my name is Jan. I got into the legal marketing space back in 2015. So at the time, I had a lot of friends who did SEO, and I was just like, honestly, I feel a little bit intimidated by the length of the contracts you have to sign.
So I got into a paper click, but I was also some step I was doing in a previous business.
I exited business a short earlier that year, and I basically paid traffic was a huge aspect of what we did.
So gone to Google and then shortly, kind of afterwards ended up focusing on where personal injury attorneys were actually the first clients that we ever worked with.
So we kind of went a little broader on paper click within the legal niche there. you know, by the time it was getting around 2020, the Google AdWords climate had changed a bunch.
I still think it’s a great platform to go on, but it’s just, you know, they’ve kind of had that creep like everything else in PI, so getting harder in order to find stuff that wasn’t already exploited by somebody else.
So we made a pivot to social around the end of 2019. And it was after reading one of my favorite books on marketing, which is Breakthrough Advertising by Eugene Schwartz.
Have you ever ever read that one, Lindsey?
Lindsey:
I haven’t read that one.
Jan Roos:
Yeah, it’s super old. I think it was published in the late 60s or early 70s, but he basically talked about these stages of market awareness.
And this is kind of disseminated through a lot of the marketing lore over the decades that have come since.
But basically, I was like, well, we have all this competition at this last mile of the customer decision journey, which is the solution stages he describes it, which encompasses pretty much everything, referrals, search, directories, anything that most people, that’s most of the legal marketing play with, but what if there was something that was outside of that?
And that’s kind of where we ended up looking into around 2019. So we started off in estate planning, and that was basically a huge focus of ours.
That happened to be one of the dumber luck timing things I’ve ever done in my life. We got started January of 2020 in earnest, and then COVID ended up happening.
So we had a bunch of estate planning firms that were generating business through seminars that we had to figure out how to do online.
So we used the webinar model. And then as the year progressed, we started getting drawn into some different things.
Like one of the first ones we had a ton of success, which was actually asbestos tort litigation, which is really, really interesting.
And it’s not the kind of thing that you would think would work on that. But we’ve been constantly surprised on how applicable this model has been to other practices since we’ve kind of like let the guard down.
Lindsey:
That kind of pretty much brings us to where we’re at today. Well, that’s great. And I love that you’ve tried your hand a few different things and have been able to bend and weave with the different paths that the marketing market has kind of taken.
So I just kind of want to get into some basics first. Because I’ve been using the terms Facebook ads and meta interchangeably.
Jan Roos:
Does meta mean more than just Facebook ads or is that pretty much at this point? Yeah. So if I have, I actually still call it Facebook ads too.
But technically, yeah, like so they did the whole rebrand to meta a couple of years ago. I was like, I don’t want to do this.
But I mean, technically, when we’re talking about the platform, if you want to just run ads on meta with no restrictions, which I don’t recommend, by the way, you would be showing up on Facebook, News Feed, all the different.
platforms within Facebook, marketplace, messenger, etc. Instagram is probably the biggest non Facebook entity that people can get success on.
And then they also have stuff around like, mean, they bought WhatsApp, a lot of other things. And they’ve even been building out a content network for a while.
So this is kind of one of those like dark places you don’t want your ad budget to go on Facebook, and you need to realize what your setups are to avoid it.
But like, you could literally be showing up on, you know, dumb, like little games and stuff that are owned by a meadow or like on netter for some point too.
So yeah, it’s it’s more things.
Lindsey:
But I honestly think the like the 80 20 of the platform is still Facebook, specifically the newsfeed too. Yeah.
Right. And that’s where I typically ads pop up probably because I’m not playing the games or on Instagram or I mean, it’s been a little time on marketplace.
So, you know, I’ve never really paid too much attention to the ads there. yeah, it seems as though I’m looking at at Facebook throughout the feed, like, you know, like every few posts or so you get an ad.
I was actually talking to my business partner, Len, this today, where every time he goes on Facebook, Facebook now thinks he’s a lawyer, and so he will get shown the same ad that a lawyer would get for different legal software or this and that every lawyer needs to know now.
And so that’s clearly a big piece that a lot of legal marketing agencies are leveraging right now, but it sounds like lawyers as well are taking advantage of that too.
And so looking at the ads themselves, so diving a little bit into this, and again, piggybacking on the conversation that I had earlier today, a lot of these ads just kind of blend in together.
And so it’s really kind of hard to pop out and stand up because people just kind of scroll by.
So for the ads themselves, what types of content should lawyers
Jan Roos:
be creating. Yeah. Well, I want to make a distinction first because there’s kind of like a lot of different, then it’s super funny.
I actually, we’ll talk about this a little bit later, but like, I also have a podcast. and you’re on a great episode.
But I actually had something on the podcast you’re focused on this other side of social. So when people say Facebook, a lot of times people or social media or whatever, I would kind of say there’s two major disciplines up.
So there’s paid social and there’s organic social. It’s kind of like, I mean, honestly, kind of like Google if you think about it.
And a lot of times when people talk about creating content, a lot of the times that’s for organic. And I think the same principles kind of apply, but like you have to create a ton of content for organic.
And I’m lazy. I don’t like bugging my clients to do stuff. I try to do like basically make one thing that works and then just pay Facebook to get in front of people, right?
But the thing that’s really important and like in terms of like stepping out of the newsfeed and getting something, it all kind of boils down to relevance.
right? So there’s this old adage and copywriting where it’s like, if you can, you know, and like, I’m wearing a black shirt right now if everyone’s like reporting, so like an ad that would say, hey, you in the black shirt, or what per lens are you?
Like, you’re in the blue blouse. Like, it’s like, you know, then you’re like, oh, wow, this is for me, right?
So how do you do that in legal? It’s all about, and to me, the opportunity really comes for Facebook on the stuff that’s outside that solution.
So what happens before? What are they thinking about the day, the hour, the week, the month before they end up hiring you off for someone, right?
So I’ll go over a recent example. So we just had a, we have a campaign that we kicked over, like, not too long ago that’s been going absolutely gangbusters.
It’s for insurance claims, right? So we’re talking about basically, it’s an informational thing you’re opting in for a webinar.
it’s basically, you know, what to do if your claim was denied or underpaid or something like that. For 99% of the population, who cares, right?
But if you’re the person who got the letter back, from your insurance company three days ago, that’s a, you know, a glass of ice water in the desert.
And that’s the thing that’s really important for people to get at. So if we can be strategic about going through what it is that people are thinking about, that’s how we kind of upstream that solution based model.
And it’s cool because when you were able to capture those people earlier, there’s a lot less competition because not a lot of people put the effort into doing this.
Lindsey:
Right. Yeah, no, and that’s, that’s a really great point. And when you’re creating these ads, so, you know, kind of going on along the same line with the insurance claims, can’t, how can you narrow it down so that you, your ad is finding the people who actually need to know that particular piece of information?
Jan Roos:
Yeah, it’s a super good question. And there’s, it’s changed a lot over the years. So like if we were talking about this like five years ago, there would just be like a litany of like interest targeting and demographics and areas and behaviors and all this stuff that you can do.
But the And he has that Facebook over time. And this is also true of Google PaperClick as well, too.
It’s become more of a black box as time goes on. So the thing that’s really funny, when I mention this, everyone knows what I’m talking about.
It’s like, if you start talking about like, oh, man, I really got to replace my tires.
Lindsey:
And then you all of a sudden start getting ads for Reineke or something like that, right? Right. completely.
Jan Roos:
Yeah, I know. it’s like, you can’t target that. I think there’s a lot of reasons for it. big pivotal moment for why we got lot of these interest targets taken away was when Zuckerberg ended up going in front of Congress.
So there’s kind of a layer of plausible deniability, because if you said, oh, cool, target people who spoke about tires in the last two days, like, they don’t want to let you know you’re doing that.
But what they basically have is like, everything has been rolled into what everyone refers to as the algorithm, which is basically matching ads.
And practically speaking, what Facebook is going to do is put your ad in front of people, see who clicks.
So if the first time we put an ad live for that insurance campaign, it’s going to pick 1,000 ran.
people in whatever geography we’re advertising in. And then three, 30, like 30 of those people are going to click.
So that ends up happening. Then basically, they’re going to find the next thousand people that look with what those 30 people have in common.
And that’s taking in the voice data, that’s taking in what they were doing, that’s taking in where they live, all these different factors.
So we can’t necessarily target it. But we were at this stage with social media advertising is your creative essentially becomes your targeting, because that’s how it’s not doing, which makes it even more important to make sure that we’re having something that not only is attractive to clients, but is attractive to the right type of people.
Lindsey:
Right. yeah, I mean, and that’s a really great point is that you can’t just put up a generic ad because who’s going to, you know, how will Facebook or meadow or this entity know exactly who to put this in front of.
And so the more clues that you put within the data content itself, it sounds like the more niche it’ll be able to display.
it’ll be able to find the right people based on the content that you’re making.
Jan Roos:
Yeah, 100%. And there’s also there’s kind of like a thing to keep in mind, too. So it’s like you kind of have to have a little bit of what I say.
What’s that song from Harry Poppins?
Lindsey:
got a spoonful of sugar?
Jan Roos:
Yeah, yeah, it’s like so that. So and that’s why I really, we’ve kind of hammered down again, partially because it was just what we ended up landing on for the circumstance we found ourselves during COVID.
But like why we find that this education model be super powerful is that we’re not like saying like, hey, sign up for this consultation.
It’s like, hey, sign up for this information, no stress. So that makes it easier. like, you know, if we’re getting at 30 people of those 1000 people to play 3% click grade, it’s like, that is going to be easier to find.
And if we just throw it like, hey, like, you’re looking for a free consultation on this, like you might get one out of 10,000 and click on it.
And that’s just less signal to the algorithm. And also Facebook’s going to kind of deprioritize stuff that people don’t click on because that’s interpreted as bad user experience.
Lindsey:
they’re not going to of want to show your ad in front of people. Right, because Facebook wants to get the money from the ad.
mean, they want your ad to do well so that you will keep purchasing more ads. And so one of the biggest challenges that we’ve gotten feedback from from lawyers is the lack of intent on the metadata platform, because people tend to go to Facebook to look at puppies and to get in political, Facebook strangers.
And that’s just what they do there. aren’t gravitating towards Facebook to hire a lawyer, not in the same way they are, you know, searching for a car accident lawyer near me.
Like, they’re just different intents when interacting with each platform. So do these ads actually convert into cases for lawyers?
Jan Roos:
Yes, well, short answers, yes, but the longer answer is that you kind of have to make sure like the strategies is working out, right?
So I actually heard a really great quote from a mentor really in my, in my marketing journey. he said, Google is where people go to make decisions.
And Facebook is where people go to avoid making any decision.
Lindsey:
Really great point.
Jan Roos:
Yeah. So basically, there’s this quote that, mean, there’s this, there’s this awesome thing. And I can, I can say a link to the show notes if anyone’s interested, but it’s called the sales pyramid.
And it was developed by this guy, Chet Holmes, which is like legendary, he’s dead now, but like he was this legendary marketing sales guy.
So basically, if you think about like, there’s a total market and like he kind of visualizes a funnel and this was done not specific to legal, but it’s, it’s born out in a lot of different markets when people end up testing it.
So you’ve got on average about 3% of people who are in the market for a given purpose. Outside of that, there’s 6 to 7% of the market that’s going to be open to it.
And then from there, there’s people who aren’t aware that they’re interested and there’s people who are aware and not they are interested.
when you add up all the sections of people who could be a possible prospect or not looking for it, it’s about 66% of that hundred.
then there’s a bottom 30% is aware of it and no, they’re not interested, right? So the real sweet spot is somebody that has a case, but doesn’t know they have a case.
So in the personal injury context, this is the person who got an accident. They didn’t think to call somebody after they got in the hospital because they didn’t think it was bad, but now they’re getting bills from their PT and they’re getting weird stuff from head trauma and the stuff’s racking up and they’re not really in the presence of mind to go ahead and say that.
But if you’re targeting somebody with a message on what to do, if this ends up happening, and that’s where those people end up coming in.
So we do kind of have to take a softer approach though, because I think the real mismatch, and this is the classic thing I see with lawyers, like, they’ll basically take a different strategy, like a strategy for somebody who’s in the decision making phase and put it in front of somebody who’s in a decision of foot and space, right?
And like the comparison I kind of think too is like, it doesn’t, it’s like, okay. When somebody is like ready to type a Google search, they’re ready to go right then and there.
So, you know, how many times, I mean, I’m sure this happens all the time for your client’s lenses. They pick up the phone, somebody’s in the hospital.
You can sign the retainer on the spot sometimes if you want to send the DocuSign or whatever is like that.
So, like, if you kind of compare signing a client to like a courtship, that’s somebody who’s ready, that’s a 90-day fiance.
You’re showing up, you’re like ready to rock, right? That doesn’t mean that you can’t go be single and meet somebody at the bar.
But if you bring an engagement ring to the bar, people are going to be like, what’s going on here?
You got to buy someone a drink, ask them to go on a date, see what their number is, right?
And then you go through that courtship process. So, that’s basically what it’s at. Facebook’s the bar and going to ask somebody to enter in their information to get some information, that’s kind of like asking them on the date.
And then from there, you can use different strategies too. Like we always buying people who are attending one of these webinars and making sure you’re getting that information.
Lindsey:
We’ll go ahead and we run a call center just to call those people and then we can qualify the ones that work and then we transfer them but that’s basically how we’ve kind of like dated on some piece by half and then we can send them over to somebody who’s ready to rock.
I absolutely love that analogy. I had never thought about it like that before but that makes a world of sense.
don’t necessarily want to be at the bar picking up lawyers but uh no that’s that’s great and so when thinking about the advertising campaign what kind of budget should a law firm be setting aside to to set up shop at the bar?
Jan Roos:
Okay got it. cool thing is that’s a lot less expensive like I haven’t started a personal injury campaign from scratch on Google as in a really really long time but like basically you know if anybody’s running this you know what those cost per clicks look like so the thing
It’s crazy. if people are going to laugh, if they hear this, for a lot of our campaigns, we’re paying two or $3 per click.
I’d say the most competitive stuff we’re talking like mass toward PI, like we’re probably talking like, I don’t know, eight or 10 on the high end.
And the thing is that if you have stuff dialed in correctly on the landing page and stuff, you can get similar conversion rates.
talking like 10, 25%. So your cost per registration goes down dramatically. As far as a straight answer on what it is, you can get a lot of data for an ad budget of probably around $3,000, I would say.
I mean, obviously you can scale from there, but it’s less like, I don’t know, I I’m trying to think.
Like I said, I don’t set up PI campaigns from scratch, people that do, I’ve heard that number is tough to do with less than 10,000 on PI.
So it’s a cheaper day to speak.
Lindsey:
Well, and I’ve seen different numbers with social media as well as traditional paper click advertising on Google. And I mean, drilling into
But it’s the conversion rate. And that having a low conversion rate, either because the landing page is configured correctly or isn’t targeting the right people at the right place in the journey, that can definitely lead to well over $3,000 to $5,000 per case sign, and while depending on the type of case, if you’re signing a really great case, that could be great.
But I know a lot of lawyers want to stay in the $2,000 or less per case on marketing spend.
And so it sounds that there is some configuration and work and some solid reflection that needs to be done to intentionally create these ads that are going to meet people where they are, drive them to a landing page that’s actually going to convert, and then pull all the pieces of the puzzle together to make it turn into a client.
And there’s a lot of work that goes into that. And so talk to me about success factors. And so what does a successful campaign look like on this?
Jan Roos:
back end or on the front end and something. yeah, gosh. So it’s like, as far as what we try to gravitate on is, usually going to be cost per, I mean, you probably know this from work with your clients.
Getting the sign case data is sometimes a challenging to work with the clients. the closest that we can generally get to is cost per pay transfer.
So that’s sort of the situation. again, it’s going to differ in terms of what market you’re working in and what the specifics are.
But I’ll kind of throw this out there, too, just kind of as like an interesting proxy. The kind of ads that if you’re listening to this podcast or probably hearing or ones that Len were talking about, we already see that most a lot of paper Lee vendors are going to be using social for the way that they do it.
So like I think the big opportunity is to kind of cut out the middle and on some of that stuff with these things that are interesting.
But like, you know, there’s people who are signing sign retainers for like $15,000. got to, sorry, $1,500. Probably, I don’t know how much.
I mean, at least there’s a lot of on the ads, but if you assume they make a margin, there’s probably a situation to get like lower than that.
So Yeah, like basically you want to get an acceptable cost per case and it’s also different like, you know You kind of have to think where things are coming at so There’s a lot of different ways that people can do this like I said, I’m a huge fan of life transfers There’s even ways that if you can get the the retainer software over to whoever’s doing the marketing or you can even sign There are markets for buying side retainers on some of this stuff in the paper league realm But you know if you have your team to do that, but like I I don’t go anywhere less Concrete than a qualified transfer case, right?
And if we’re doing the qualification we take that off of some of these hands But like you should at least be looking at cost release I think this might be more of one of those things That’s if you’re in kind of the organic social side of things But just like I mean if somebody’s talking you about impressions or likes or blah blah blah or something like that I just run in the other direction.
I don’t think that’s worth it And this is my obvious bias is like a direct response guy, but yeah, I think you got to be looking
and leads at the very least and then ideally if you can square those away with numbers in your own close rates, like yeah that cost per case is ultimately the great equalizer for whatever channel you’re going be working on.
Lindsey:
Right and if you’re not getting close cases then this is not a successful campaign like it’s just kind of the bottom line and it’s funny that you mentioned the impressions and likes and all that kind of stuff.
On this podcast we’ve interviewed some social media legends and the personal injury world who have gotten like millions of followers and tons of calls and lots of likes and lots of watches on their you know use on their videos or whatever that stuff is.
Clearly I’m not in the social media world like don’t dare me to do your Facebook ads. How can this help?
some of those you know one of these lawyers who comes to mind he has found you know a niche in creating a social like a social media identity for himself and has gotten millions of followers but it doesn’t
translate into cases for him. And so at the end of the day, it’s hard to say, you know, whether not this is successful.
He’s really popular and like, you know, gravy, you know, kuda points for, you know, being being a household name for people who watch that kind of video.
But the question that comes to mind is like, how can lawyers monetize the attention that they get if it’s not actually converting into a case?
Jan Roos:
Yeah, I think there’s like a big part of this is like, what kind of stuff are you putting out there?
it’s like, you know, to go into another analogy, like, you different bait, you’re going to get different fish at the end of the day.
Like, I’ll give you kind of like a crazy example of something I’ve seen people doing like a lot of it, just like this like newsjacking stuff or whatever, you’re like, Oh my God, like, look what happened with Kanye and Bianca Censory’s latest divorce.
that’s just going to go crazy viral, right? But I mean, even if you’re a divorce attorney, that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s going to be the
people that you’re going. So it’s like, I think the informative content is a super, super key thing. And I don’t know, there’s something that I kind of think about.
I’m going to go a little like, this is a bit of a hot take. I think some people get into social media because they really like the attention.
And then sometimes they’re like, yeah, well, you know, I’m going to hire this, you know, documentary filmmaker to do all my stuff and whatever.
And we’re going to expense it. And it’s like, you know, I don’t know if they’re actually really looking to return on it.
But at the end of the day, it’s like, you know, theoretically forgetting, okay, so there’s no a period to translate the wrong people that don’t have a case into cases.
But step one, if you’re doing stuff that’s attracting people that are in the decision, making phase or like approaching the decision making phase, you can convert them.
It’s just kind of establishing a chain of custody. And like, if we’re even talking about organic social, which in my opinion is a lot harder.
It’s like, this is like making sure you’re having calls to action in your videos or the link and bio thing or whatever.
When you’re going with direct response type stuff, it’s like, you know, you’re typically going to be driving towards some sort of an action for us.
It’s typically going to be a webinar signup, but you know, this could also be stuff like form-filled surveys, quizzes, blah, blah, blah.
So it should be measurable at least in that extent. But yeah, also like one of the things to kind of keep in mind with, I mean, this isn’t issue with paid, but it is with organic.
Like, you don’t know where those things are going to show up, right? So, like, this is kind of like, we have a client.
again, we don’t do TikTok, by the way, but he independently decided to go get famous on TikTok and he crushed it.
But he’s doing a lot of educational content. It’s working for him. He’s based in Minnesota. So anyone who’s coming in from Minnesota, he can help.
But lot of these things is estate mining. So it’s like a lot of this stuff is generally, you know, applies across the different other states.
But I know it’s like every couple of weeks, he’s like, hey, do you guys have a dude in Colorado or whatever, but it’s also kind of neat because, you know, he’s.
getting either a markup or some sort of a co-counsel with somebody, but I think also there’s just downstream of the fact that he was leading with educational content as opposed to whatever celebrity throwing issue or something like that.
Lindsey:
Right, yeah. as you said, you’re going to catch different fish with different bait. And so putting yourself out there as a reputable source who has information as opposed to, call me right this second.
That guy isn’t going to be the one who’s driving the connections and making the relationships. And I know there is something to be said for having that top of mind awareness and just having your name out there, your face out there, your reputation out there.
And all of that is well and good. But I know a lot of lawyers who are interested in marketing are wanting to have that immediate return on investment.
And so again, looking at different goals with different types of content that you’re putting out there. So there’s clearly a lot of strategy that goes behind what it is.
that you do here and creating ads and putting them on the right platforms and you know getting them in front of the right people.
Is this something that can realistically be managed in house or you know by a general marketing person or is it so specialized now that lawyers should have you know a specialist who really focuses on this concentrate on this focus?
Jan Roos:
Yeah so I’ll say this like there’s there’s kind of two ways I think that things can mess up like one of the things and like this is where like it’s going to be a non-starter is like if you’re pushing the wrong strategy from day one it honestly doesn’t matter if you have a fantastic person to run it it doesn’t really matter right so part of it’s kind of the strategy and like I don’t think anything that we’ve ever done for clients was Facebook specific so much as it was general marketing strategy specific like I got most of the stuff from that ended up making
the webinar thing at success back in 2020 from book that was published in the sevenies. So it’s like, you don’t necessarily need to do that like so much.
But assuming you have a strategy that’s going to work, there’s kind of the big thing that’s challenging with with social as compared to search is just this whole concept of ad fatigue, which a lot of people aren’t aware of, including our competitors.
So I mean, it’s interesting because like, you think about this type of person who’s typing in wrongful death attorney Chicago, right?
That’s going to be a different person or a different group of people pretty much every day, every week. We do most of our legacy business on the paper click side is actually in bankruptcy.
And like, I haven’t rewritten those ads since 2019, because there’s a different group of people every week. It’s never going to go wrong, right?
But the way that Facebook works is that you’re targeting like, you know, geographic area and, you know, the bigger it is that the less
likely it’s going to have to repeat people, but you have to kind of get attention from people. then you do get that inner blindness over time.
A metric that we look at internally is usually around three impressions. It’s just super in the suites. But like, after about three times of somebody’s it hasn’t clicked, they’re not going to click.
So what makes a social media campaign, especially one that’s more local, so if you only practice statewide, citywide, whatever, it’s going to be more true for you is keeping things fresh.
So that basically becomes really challenging. I have to say you can’t do it yourself, but it becomes challenging. you’re going to have to, you know, you got to switch up the ads, you might want to go from image to video, you need to come up with different copy angles.
You know, internally, we’ve got designers, video editors, copywriters, to kind of do all that stuff, not to say it’s impossible to do outside, but like, there’s a point of which there, it makes more sense to outsource that.
I mean, I know, like, without a doubt, I see so much content from Morgan and Morgan Briggs. to it’s like those guys don’t need to hire an agency.
I mean, I don’t know, probably not a fair comparison, like, you know, a certain volume, it’s like, you know, it’s like, you know, you would be too big to have an agency.
But like, if you’re trying it out, I think the question is kind of, it’s a trade off, right? Like, you could probably take longer and get it cheaper over time, because you pretty much just have to have ad spend, but it’s like, the real question and trade off is how much you’re going to spend before you realize those games, know?
So it’s, I’ll give the classic lawyer answer and say it depends, but there’s no such approach.
Lindsey:
That’s true. And it made that and that’s a great point. All right. So you have a podcast as well.
I’ve been on it. It was a pleasure. tell us a little bit about that and what kind of information lawyers can get if they want to go learn more from you on your podcast.
Jan Roos:
Okay, sweet. So it’s called the the law firm growth podcast. It’s marketed wherever fine podcasts or something like that.
too. whatever, whatever your thing. So, you know, I’ll presume, you know, what podcasts are if you’re listening to this on a podcast.
But yeah, basically, we started a, gosh, I don’t even know, I relaunched it at one point, but I think it’s at least been 2019, 2018, maybe.
But we basically, I think we just crossed our 300th episode. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. But basically, it’s like, okay, it’s all about law from growth.
So we have a mix of interviews, and I do solo podcasts as well. it’s like basically the people that we try to bring on are subject matter experts, such as yourself.
But we also, we had just interviewed people that are doing like great work in the space. So like, we have series where we just reached out to the fastest growing law firms in the country.
And then we basically said, Hey, how do you do it? What’s, you know, what are your secrets? can you import for people down the line?
We get a bunch of inbound stuff as well too. So we kind of cherry picked the people that I think are the most interesting.
I like trying to break like new voices in the space too. So that’s just kind of something I’ve enjoyed.
then the solo practice, the solo stuff is going to be I just, you know, basically every other week, we’ll go into some or other, you know, stuff from the weird world of marketing sales, leadership, blah, blah, that I’ll happen upon during my travels.
So that’s basically it.
Lindsey:
So yeah, kind of the next of those things we do weekly. It’s Tuesday at 8 a.m. Excellent. Well, lawyers want to get in touch and contact you directly with questions.
How can they get in touch?
Jan Roos:
Okay, awesome. I would probably say podcast is probably best one, but actually, I think I just wanted to call an action to find me on LinkedIn.
So it’s, it’s Rus and it’s spelled strangely. So it’s a J-A-N-R-O-O-S as in Sierra. So if you find me, I’ve got like, I think at a time, this recording, I’ve got some thing with like a, it says case you all at the top.
think the only one that has that. that’s me.
Lindsey:
I’ll make sure that we put a link to that in the podcast notes.
Jan Roos:
All right.
Lindsey:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jan. It has been an absolute pleasure having you on the show today.
